Podcast 527: The Last Thing We Want to Talk About with Frank Perman

FRANK: My specialty is in my area. Yes, I'm mostly local. I'm in the Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania area. But I've also gotten very good at shipping and receiving human remains from around the world. I've helped people repatriate, to get people back to the country, and I've also helped people get their loved ones to a foreign destination.

MARTIN: Hi everyone. This is Martin Pytela for Life Enthusiast Health Shots Podcast, and you'll find me at life-enthusiast.com. Today, I have with me Frank Perman, who happens to be the man you will eventually have to meet or at least one like him. Frank, it's a delight to be meeting you.

FRANK: Thank you, Martin. I appreciate the invite. I appreciate you having me on.

MARTIN: Right. So the story is, Frank owns a funeral home, runs a funeral home, and knows a whole lot about the human fate. Everybody's going to have one. Frank. Where do we start?

FRANK: You know, Martin, let's start with this. We know it's going to happen.

MARTIN: Yeah.

FRANK: The odds are, one out of one, there was only one person that came back. He was only here for 40 days, and then he said he'd come back and get us.

MARTIN: Right. Any day now.

FRANK: So, we know this. So the issue is, what do you want to do for yourself? What would you want to do for someone else? The question that gets asked of me most often is, what do I do now? And the answer is, it depends, and I'm not saying that to be a smart aleck, because it's not a smart aleck answer. Different people have different needs. They have different ways to honor their dead. They have different ideas and thoughts of what they want to do themselves, for themselves. So my job is to get them to not so much, but people, a lot of times you hear the word closure, I don't like the word closure because I think closure means you're closing a book. To me, when I'm getting them to, if I'm doing my job, I'm getting them to resolution. They are resolved of what the situation actually is.

MARTIN: Yeah, acceptance.

FRANK: How do I move from there?

MARTIN: Yeah, we have the famous five states of grief, right?

FRANK: Absolutely.

MARTIN: And we start with acknowledging that it happened.

FRANK: Right.

MARTIN: And then we will be angry at it. And at some point we need to arrive at acceptance. I think that would be the best place where we're no longer fighting it. We're living with it.

FRANK: True. However, what's happening now in society is so many people are choosing to do nothing. There's no services, there's no visitation, there's nothing. Oh, just cremate me and scatter me in the park somewhere. The issue is that,

MARTIN: And no party? Nothing?

FRANK: Nothing. There's not even a newspaper notice. Nothing.

MARTIN: Okay, all right.

FRANK: So when I say to people, where do you want to have your visitation? You can have it at the funeral home, where you've advertised when it's going to be what's going to happen. You know, whether it's a couple of hours before a service, whether it's some visitation, or do you want to have that visitation in the produce aisle of a grocery store? "Hey, Martha, how's Jerry?" "Oh, Jerry died six months ago." "What happened?” “ Well, he was sick and he didn't want to do anything." Then the conversation goes to how they died, the funeral is how they lived. Now it's time to celebrate. It's time to talk about the stories. That's what a public funeral allows people to do.

MARTIN: Yeah. As you're saying this, it reminds me, of course, I'm in the business of dealing with people who want their health. And what's interesting is, I'm hoping to have caught that guy when he was 20 or 30, but he doesn't show up with me until he's 45, 55, 65 when he's already well down on the downslope with his health.

FRANK: Hey, hey, watch that.

MARTIN: And the main point of that is that when you are losing something, you're noticing that it actually can get worse. And what you just said reminded me, because the person who's going to be dead is going to leave the people behind, the ones that are living and they're going to leave them with an emotional injury that they could either manage well or just totally stick it to them.

FRANK: Yeah, it happens. It happens all the time. I've asked people to please take some time to do something. I'm not telling them what to do.

MARTIN: Yeah.

FRANK: But do something. The statistics that I've heard, and I've heard this from a couple different sources, two thirds of the people that come to pay their respects don't know the person who died. They know a spouse, they know a child. They work with them. They were on the softball team together, but they don't actually know the person who died.

MARTIN: I'm sorry. So they are coming in to support the living?

FRANK: The funeral is not for the dead. Everything you've done for them, has been done.

MARTIN: Yeah.

FRANK: This is, funerals are not for the dead. The funerals are for the living, to remember, to tell stories, to laugh, to cry, it's a safe space where all the emotions can be expressed in one place at one time, safely.

MARTIN: Right. And so, as you said, the grocery store aisle, you will have to repeat that same story over and over, and you're going to be reliving it, and you're going to be re-injuring your emotional body with that, instead of having had that one big opportunity to just spill it out and celebrate what you had.

FRANK: Yes, and to me, it's like pulling off an emotional scab.

MARTIN: Yeah.

FRANK: How many times do you have to tell the story? Tell it once and tell it well.

MARTIN: Yeah and have time to prepare for telling it.

FRANK: Absolutely, yeah, absolutely.

MARTIN: This reminds me of weddings. I keep thinking that weddings are mostly for the parents rather than for the couple that's being married, because it's the village that's celebrating the fact that two people are going to get together and maybe procreate.

FRANK: Yeah, there's a lot of similarities between weddings and funerals. The star of the show is different. The reason why you're gathering is different. However, the gathering of people ends up being fantastic.

MARTIN: Yeah, in both ways, it's a celebration of life. One is the celebration of life, life that we hope to see. The other one is the celebration of life that was. Hopefully well lived.

FRANK: Absolutely.

MARTIN: I remember my wife's dad died young. He died at 73. So he preceded most of his, whatever we call it, his age group, his people.

FRANK: His peers.

MARTIN: Yeah, excellent word. Anyway, there were 400 people at his funeral. In a small town of 3000. They came in from far and away. They all wanted to be together, and they all wanted to talk about it, and it was a glorious occasion.

FRANK: Then it was a good funeral.

MARTIN: Yeah. He was a good man, right? Anyway, he was well remembered. Stories were told, and I think everyone was emotionally healthier for it.

FRANK: Excellent, excellent. That's what we're shooting for, and that's what we're attempting to bring about.

MARTIN: Yeah, all right. So when do you want to hear from the person that is thinking, well, so you either are talking to the person who's going to have to look after somebody soon. Right? Like a caregiver who already sees the end of the road for somebody they're caring for. Gosh, there's so many different scenarios. It just depends.

FRANK: Oh, absolutely. And I say that it depends, not to be a smart aleck, because there's so many. Everybody handles grief differently. Everyone. Everybody handles the same death differently. How you would handle your father in law's death would be different from your wife. It would be different from his wife. Would be different from any other children, the grandchildren. It depends. The issue is, how do you find the balance to get everybody heading at least in the right direction of resolution? That's the key. That's what I do.

MARTIN: Okay, well, let's try and have you help people plan something, or at least, think about what are the five things that you'd want them to put on their to-do list soon.

FRANK: First is to gather the memories, your own memories. Look at photographs. My mom just went through a box of, literally last week we were talking about this, she found a box in her mother's things that she hadn't even seen, and it was photos of me as a as a baby and as a toddler, pictures of my grandfather, pictures of my grandmother, stories that my grandmother had written down that my mom didn't even know about. Well, she died in 1991 so we're talking 34 years later, my mom is still finding out things about her mother.

MARTIN: Yeah.

FRANK: Okay, it's not a matter of telling everybody what you have, tell them where things are. Whether it's financial records, whether it's photographs, whether it's videos, let people know where things are, so that they can make the, they can do the gathering of the stories. Your own stories. So many times I hear stories. I hear, "Oh, I didn't know much about him. My dad worked all the time." And then I went, "Okay, but you brought me photographs, because I do video. We do videos in house. And there's photographs of you at the beach. Where are you? What do you mean your dad only worked all the time? That's not true. You did things together as a family." "Oh yeah, my dad was the assistant coach on my baseball team. Hello?"

MARTIN: All the time.

FRANK: How do you get the brain moving in the direction of, what stories do you want to tell?

MARTIN: Yeah, I'm just planning in my head as you're saying. I'm thinking I need to record a video that's going to start with: Dear executor...

FRANK: Oh, yeah, well, I don't want to.

MARTIN: My financial records are stored on a hard drive in my drawer.

FRANK: What was that password?

MARTIN: The password is, yeah,

FRANK: Yeah, P, A, S, S, W, O, R, D, I get it.

MARTIN: Alright.

FRANK: But that's part of it. The other thing is, ask your family. Okay, if something happened to me, what would you want? Would you want to see me? Would you want to have people gather? There's a lot of people that make arrangements for themselves, and they say, "I don't want to, I don't want anybody to make a fuss." Shush. Shut up, man, make a fuss. Do the fuss. Make a fuss. Death is hard enough as it is. Yeah to do nothing is, ok, I'm pretty passionate about that. Do something. All right. I'm not here to tell you what to do. Just do something.

MARTIN: Yeah, send my ashes to be with my grandmother in Pennsylvania. Where all our clans started? Right? Something.

FRANK: Yeah, do something.

MARTIN: Yeah. All right.

FRANK: You don't need the cemetery to do that. Go ahead. I'm sorry.

MARTIN: I'm sorry, yeah. I keep talking over you. So if you're still alive, make a plan. Think about what you want. Think about not yourself, but think about the ones that you are leaving behind.

FRANK: Exactly. Because a lot of times people make pre planning arrangements, and it's nothing that the family actually wants or even needs. It happens often.

MARTIN: Alright. Selfish stuff.

FRANK: It's like "Oh, don't make a fuss. Stop. And I'm not telling people to, it's not about money. If there's a financial issue, have a picnic on a birthday or an anniversary or a holiday. Get together, laugh, tell stories. We just did this for somebody, and she died. She was 68 years old. She was young, bad health. They released 68 balloons. Actually, they had the event on their 69th birthday, and they had a balloon release. It was just, it was right for them.

MARTIN: It was meaningful to them.

FRANK: Yeah, that's beautiful. So I'm not saying you have to buy a fancy casket and be at the funeral home for whatever amount of time, a day or two. Yeah, do something.

MARTIN: All right.

FRANK: That's basically what I want to say.

MARTIN: Okay, so I was counting it on my fingers. So one, start thinking about it. Two, think not of yourself, but think of the ones you've left behind.

FRANK: Yes, three, gather.

MARTIN: Gather your stuff, the letters and photographs and whatevers.

FRANK: And the information that we need for paperwork.

MARTIN: Oh, yeah, the legal things.

FRANK: Yeah, obituary information, whether you decide to put it in a newspaper, to which my kids would say, what's a newspaper? But put it, so you could put it on the funeral home website, just the obituary, just the information.

MARTIN: So you can email everyone the link to that page, right?

FRANK: Everybody can link it and with social media nowadays, I think it gets out faster through social media than newspaper.

MARTIN: Right.

FRANK: It happens. The other thing is, we need information for the death certificate, the security number, date of birth, mother's name, including mother's maiden name, father's name, where they were born, if they were born in the in US, what county, what state, if you're born in a foreign country, that information, what they did for a living, the highest level of education. Some of that sounds kind of crazy, of what they ask for. Pennsylvania's vital statistics. They're doing longevity studies based upon education and what they did for a living. So all that information we gather, and it's on a death certificate.

MARTIN: Oh, so you're actually the channel through which these statistics are gathered.

FRANK: I gather, and I file, correct. And if somebody is a veteran, there are veterans benefits. I gather, I can't inform social security of a death. I just can't do anything about benefits for a survivor.

MARTIN: Right.

FRANK: But there's so many things. You brought this up earlier. You talked about relationships at a wedding. Everything we do at the funeral home is almost the exact same thing as what we do for, as what people do for a wedding. Only, we get it done in a day or two. So when I hear people say "Oh, my wedding's in a year and a half." I'm thinking, it doesn't, the marriages sometimes aren't lasting that long.

MARTIN: You're like the fast food of significant events, right?

FRANK: Well, I wouldn't go that low.

MARTIN: What I mean is,

FRANK: Time wise, yes, it happens quickly. Think about it. We get a venue for a luncheon. We get a venue for a service. We do printing, we have paperwork. There's documentation. So in essence, yes, we get things done in a quicker version. So I would say hire a funeral director if you want them to be a good wedding planner.

MARTIN: All right, that's good. So it's like a wedding planner, except it's called a funeral director.

FRANK: Yeah, yes, yes.

MARTIN: All right, cool. Well,

FRANK: You didn't expect this, did you?

MARTIN: Well, I should have a better plan already. I should have had a better plan already when I first started to drive, but I definitely should have a better plan now, right? My grandchildren are small, but they may still remember me. I got an interesting call not that long ago, a grandson contacted me from Chile, and he said, "Do you remember Heini Schlesinger?" And I said, "Yeah, I met him once, one day in 1968 he came for a visit, to visit my mother. He said, "Yeah, I have some photographs." And he showed me a few photographs of myself, my parents. I was a 16 year old boy then, and we're standing on the city square, right? And so he's telling me, "I am trying to research my grandfather. He never wanted to speak about his life before Chile, because grandfather was a survivor of the Holocaust and he left for Chile. And so there was a heartbreak in 1947. Nothing before 1947 was. And so this grandson is now trying to find out, with the guy being dead, he only left him a photo album, and he found a name, and he looked me up online, and he wanted me to tell him a few stories.

FRANK: Wow, wow.

MARTIN: Talk about, and it happens to so many kids. They're about 18 or so, and they start getting interested in their grandparents. Well, if the grandparents are already gone, there's not much to tell, unless they left something behind, right?

FRANK: Right. Most people can't go beyond their grandparents' parents or their great great great grandparents. Very few people can go that many generations back. I have people calling the funeral home and saying, my grandfather died in 1968. Can you let me know where he was buried? And if I have those records, we have records from our funeral home back that far, but we've purchased other funeral homes where their records aren't quite that extensive. So we do what we can.

MARTIN: Right. Interesting. Yeah, there used to be good records when churches were running the show, and it was all written in the priests or whatever it was, directories, right? I bet you there are better records from the 1800s than there are from the 1960s. Or 50s or 40s. I don't know.

FRANK: You may be right.

MARTIN: I don't know. I'm guessing at that. All right, so let's talk about the living so we're still on the no regrets funeral. What all should I have done so that my people won't hate me for letting them down.

FRANK: When you gather the information, I said it earlier, tell people where it is. You don't need to tell them what's in it. Just tell them where it is. Many people have made funeral arrangements, never told their family, the family then has a funeral somewhere else, and they had no idea that they purchased a cemetery plot or a marker or a casket or a pre-planned a funeral.

MARTIN: Oh so like I had a prepaid $20,000 affair, and nobody used it?

FRANK: Nobody used it. There are thousands of caskets purchased, but will never be used.

MARTIN: Interesting. Here's something I wonder about, tell me this, what happens with caskets? Are they burnt with the body, or are they reused? Am I buying this beautiful piece of furniture only to destroy it, or am I buying it to rent it for a while?

FRANK: It depends. Some people have cremated solid wood caskets, cherry, oak, mahogany, right into the crematory, and then other people have utilized them. I don't quite want to call it a rental casket, because it's not used over and over. The shell is but the interior is changed person to person, and then the interior goes with that person to the crematory.

MARTIN: Yeah.

FRANK: Then you put a new interior in.

MARTIN: Right. To me, it feels almost sacrilegious to sacrifice the tree, I don't know mahogany or cherry or oak or whatever the heck it was, and just burn it up in a pyre.

FRANK: First of all, it's hard for me to look at that happen. However, there's some people that's what they want. There's, a Geo Tracker will get you the same place as a Lamborghini, okay,

MARTIN: Yeah.

FRANK: What do you want? What? It's not for me to say what's right for that person.

MARTIN: Yeah, bury me with my horse and my three wives. And two dozen of slaves, all of it.

FRANK: Yeah, look at what's in China, the Terracotta Army.

MARTIN: Right. Yeah, was that a funeral for one guy?

FRANK: One person, over 8.000 terracotta soldiers, and every single one was different.

MARTIN: Yeah.

FRANK: No duplicates. So, look at the Taj Mahal. People don't realize the Taj Mahal is a mausoleum.

MARTIN: Oh, I thought it was a gift to the living woman. No, huh?

FRANK: No. It was built as a mausoleum.

MARTIN: Okay.

FRANK: So, the pyramids,

MARTIN: I don't believe that was.

FRANK: There's other things going on there.

MARTIN: Yeah. Okay. But by mausoleum, I understand I mean fancy graves, right?

FRANK: Right. People who purchase a simple casket, and you have people buy caskets that are unbelievably expensive.

MARTIN: All right.

FRANK: I'm not here to judge. I'm here to do what families tell me,

MARTIN: You can make a statement as impactful as you are. Okay.

FRANK: It depends. Sometimes as a funeral director, I'm shocked at what people select. I'm going on vacation this week, soon, because people spend so much money, but I can't judge them. We're not here to judge. I'm here to accommodate.

MARTIN: Well, it's like a wedding, right? Some people just elope and do a wedding in a garden with a simple cake, and somebody else will invite 600 guests and spend a million dollars on their wedding.

FRANK: Absolutely, absolutely. I remember years ago I read about a wedding for which the father purchased every flower on planet Earth for his daughter's wedding.

MARTIN: Wow.

FRANK: He ordered them all.

MARTIN: Wow.

FRANK: For three days, there were no other flowers available except what a florists had in its inventory, because everything else was purchased.

MARTIN: Okay. I hope she didn't divorce.

FRANK: I don't think it was that much of a drop in the bucket for his,

MARTIN: It's not that. It's the strength of the statement, right?

FRANK: Now you can tell everybody, yeah, I owned every flower on Earth. Okay, that buck and a half will get you a cup of coffee. Now, wait a minute, it's five bucks now.

MARTIN: Okay, so do you want to tell a story or two, funny as they may be?

FRANK: Yeah, I thought the woman was actually pulling my leg. I'll start with that. I got a phone call. She wanted to come in to pre arrange her husband's funeral. Ahead is pre arranged. He's alive, not dead yet. Understand that. Made arrangements, and she said, "I'd like to schedule the cremation for Tuesday." I said, "I thought we were pre arranging." She said, "Yeah" I said, "We can't schedule a cremation until he's dead." And she goes, “Oh, he has to be dead first?”

FRANK: Yeah.

FRANK: He might have something to say about it before it happens.

MARTIN: Oh, man.

FRANK: And I thought, why is this lady pulling my leg? She wasn't. She was serious.

MARTIN: She wanted to what? Burn him alive?

FRANK: Get rid of him. Divorce him. He can still work and pay your alimony. I didn't get it. I didn't understand.

MARTIN: That is wild. Ok.

FRANK: But I'm like, really? At a funeral service, at the funeral home. A family came in, they had the visitation. Now we're at the service, they invited people to come up and tell something about the person. Well, the daughters and the sons and the grandchildren and brothers and sisters, everybody had a story, and this gentleman got up and he walked to the microphone, and nobody knew who he was, and he said he was in Mississippi for two years, and everybody went, yes, in the military, yes. I want you to know that he was my father. That nobody knew about. Nobody. And there's that momentary, the breath comes in and everybody's like, what's going to happen here? And the sons and daughters all got up and they welcomed him to the family. It was beautiful considering what could have happened. And he wasn't there to stick it to anybody. He said, "I just wanted to come say hello, introduce myself and say goodbye to my father. Wow, stories like that happen, and it's not necessarily funny. It can be beautiful, it can be cathartic, it can be fun and funny, even at a sad event.

MARTIN: Yeah.

FRANK: And that was one of the most powerful things, especially when nobody expected it. Nobody knew it was coming, but it was awesome. It was phenomenal.

MARTIN: Great. Well, so you got stuff to look forward to?

FRANK: You do.

MARTIN: Yeah. Alright.

FRANK: And that was one of the most powerful things, especially when nobody expected it. Nobody knew it was coming, but it was awesome. It was phenomenal.

MARTIN: Great. Well, so you got stuff to look forward to?

FRANK: You do.

MARTIN: Yeah alright.

FRANK: Another great story, heading into a cemetery, hearse, limo, a lead car, hearse, limousine in the people who are  heading to the cemetery. We get in the cemetery, we see people off to the left, people off to the right. Then we saw dogs on leashes, and then we realized they were police. With that, while the procession is still moving, one of the doors of the limousine opens, and one of the sons takes off to the woods. He was wanted. There were helicopters, state police, local police, county police, FBI, US marshals, dogs. That's crazy enough. To me, the 'Coup de grâce' was that he got away. 

MARTIN: Oh my lord.

FRANK: These people there, and that's when you kind of go, wow, that's, that one we're going to be talking about for a while.

MARTIN: Interesting. 

FRANK: Still do.

MARTIN: Alright. Those are cool stories. So for the living. So Frank, your service is local, right? You don't really do anything for people everywhere.

FRANK: Yes, I'm mostly local. I'm in the Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania area, but I've also gotten very good at shipping and receiving human remains from around the world. I've helped people repatriate, to get people back to the country. And I've also helped people get their loved one to a foreign destination. Most of the states, yes. However, I've gotten bodies to and from England, Germany, France, Spain, Italy, Croatia, Slovenia, Czech Republic. Five countries in Africa, Zambia was the latest one, Nigeria, Egypt, Tanzania, Botswana. And then in the Far East, Singapore, Philippines.

MARTIN: Alright. So we have people either on a holiday needing to ship the remains back, or people from there who want to be buried with their ancestors. Yeah?

FRANK: Correct, absolutely. 

MARTIN: Yeah, right on, yeah. And that's a major logistical thing actually.

FRANK: Some of the countries are very difficult to deal with.

FRANK: The other thing is that a lot of legal documents need to be translated into another language, right?

MARTIN: It's good to have somebody with connections, because once you've done it, you have a trail, right? You already know, which is a useful thing. 

FRANK: Yeah.

MARTIN: I looked at your website. You have some neat things there, like the most frequently asked questions and a few things. Are you going to expand on that?

FRANK: I do things to get away from what I do as a funeral director, I've been doing stand up comedy for the last 15 years. I just had a show here in Pittsburgh recently, and I've done shows in Vegas and Philadelphia, Cincinnati, Dallas. So, yeah, I've, it's funny, I had somebody who said, "Oh, in his, in his comedy career." It's not a career. It's my step away from what I do, just a decompression.

MARTIN: Yeah. You would want to have some outlet to let the pressure out. 

FRANK: Right.

MARTIN: Because what you deal with is not exactly an emotionally easy path.

FRANK: People say, "Oh, you get used to it." No, you don't.

MARTIN: No, you don't. 

FRANK: No you don't get used to it. If you get used to it, you should probably think about getting into a different profession or retire or sell, you don't get used to certain things. That's a fallacy. 

MARTIN: Yeah, it's sort of like the soldier who's coming back from the war, right?

FRANK: Right.

MARTIN: It marks you. It's not,

FRANK: Yes, and I tell people, I've seen things. 

MARTIN: Yeah

FRANK: There are stories you wouldn't believe, truly. And it's not to be maudlin. I'm just being real. I've seen things that you just, I've shaken my head and say, "I can't believe this. It's hard to believe."

MARTIN: Okay, when I asked you, are you going to expand on it? I thought you're going to tell me that you're writing a book or something.

FRANK: I've written, actually, I have two books finished. One is a planning guide that is in, it's being edited now. I actually put too much information in it, and it's unwieldy for what people need to do if a death has actually occurred, or it's coming soon. That's finished, but I gotta get rid of some stuff. The other one is, I'm also involved in scouting, and I wrote memorial book to memorialize a scout or a Scouter that has died, and for an organization that has a belief in a higher power, they never had one. So in 2021,I finished the memorial guide for the Boy Scouts of America. And I have that book too, and it has gone out. 

MARTIN: Yeah, that would have legs.

FRANK: Yeah, that would have legs. It has legs. So I'm also in the process of, like you asked, stories, I'm writing it now. The book's called: "Life lessons learned in the business of death." And I'm putting down the stories of things that I have experienced, witnessed, or even heard about, some are funny, some are unbelievably tragic. There's a lot of life you can learn about when you're dealing with death.

MARTIN: Yeah, Frank, you should be starting a Substack.

FRANK: Yeah, I should. So,

MARTIN: My weekly, this week we had, whatever the story might be. Well, I hope that you have at least had a chance to reflect and just realized that this is going to be in your face one day with full force, and that a bit of planning, it goes a long way. As I started out, we hope that people will do preventive things. The power of prevention is awesome when it comes to your health, and I think the power of planning is going to be worth the penny planned is going to be worth a pound after the fact, something like that. Get a wedding planner and get a funeral director. They both are worth their money.

FRANK: There you go. Well, thank you so much, Martin. I appreciate you having me on. People can get in touch with me. My email is Frank@permanfuneralhome.com, my website is PermanFuneralhome.com, if you have questions, I do speak to different groups. I have spoken in a number of events, mostly related to funeral service, and I'm ready to head out and talk to people. I can give some pretty great stories. I can also tell a joke or two, and I can entertain as well as teach. So Martin, thank you so much for this opportunity. 

MARTIN: All right. Permanfuneralhome.com. Go take a look. This is Martin Pytela, Life Enthusiast Health Shots Podcast, life-enthusiast.com. Thank you, Frank.

FRANK  

You're welcome. Take care.