Podcast 522: Returning the Nervous System to Wholeness with Alisa Gracheva

MARTIN: Hi everyone, this is Martin Pytela for Life Enthusiast podcast, and today I have a rare experience for you. Rare because it comes on the back of an immigrant story, and that, my friends, is refreshing. Getting a perspective from another world is really educational and really useful. And when we, myself being one of those who come to a new country, we come with very fresh eyes. So we get to see things that the people who are born in it don't. To explain, to a fish, an aquarium seems like a natural world. Contemplate that. Welcome today, Alisa Gracheva.

ALISA: Yes, thank you so much for having me. Definitely an exciting experience and I would love to share everything I do and everything I know. I would say, or everything I experienced as mentioned in my immigrant life in the past. So yes, thank you for having me.

MARTIN: Yeah, of course. Well, first of all, we should say that there's a good level of credentials behind your name. Those were a bunch of letters. You studied clinical counseling? Is that the world?

ALISA: Yes, clinical mental health counseling. I'm a licensed psychotherapist, rather I work as a licensed psychotherapist and I specialize in trauma. So I utilize a lot of different methods of working with people who experience trauma in different ways.

MARTIN: Right. Well, there's no lack of that. I tell people that health stands on four or overcoming four problems, and that would be malnutrition, stagnation, toxicity, and trauma. And I think they're not equal in the sense of being even, but equally important. And trauma, when introduced into our lives, causes us to not process information correctly. Distortions. And I so appreciate you specializing in that because I don't. So, let's roll with that. How did you get here?

ALISA: Ah, oh my god. My journey started back in, I'm a Soviet baby. I was born in the Soviet Union, Russia now, right? The territory of Russia. It’s been quite an experience, and I feel a lot of components played a part in my life to make a transition to the United States at the age of 18. And I think there's also transgenerational trauma that took place because both of my grandparents have been through the Second World War and I grew up on their stories. My grandmother was in Leningrad's blockade, she remained an orphan during the blockade of Leningrad at the time and my grandfather was actually a driver of the war too at the age of 18. So, I don't know, maybe it's kind of like a generational pattern of changing lives at the age of 18, but that's what kind of brought me here. And I think I was making sense of my life back then and as well as getting new experiences in this country, and it was healing my own trauma and understanding the patterns that trauma can create, and overcoming that which took many, many years for myself. And now I'm very fortunate to be doing this beautiful work and being the guide and assistant for people to go through their own feelings of trauma, and there are so many different ways that we can experience trauma. So, I love exploring the worlds of others and being there for them. So, that's kind of my backstory.

MARTIN: Yeah, I'm sure we'll get into the how and the why and the what's in just a moment, but I'm looking at your articles about you and how you put yourself out to the world, and I see the words: shared, intelligent, and new code of ethics.

ALISA: Yes.

MARTIN: That's the website. that you built, right? Or that's the channel you built.

ALISA: Yes. Yeah. It's my personal website. I actually started even before I did clinical mental health counseling because I've done a lot of work as a volunteer of crisis, crisis counselor for a crisis text line, and I've been available for people through coaching as well. I've been in mental health since 2012, getting an education again, healing myself, and also learning new skills and understanding trauma and human conditions and everything of that sort. And everything that we have in life, I feel like, and every knowledge or knowing that we get it's all shared because we get that from somewhere, and then we incorporate, creating our own way of seeing the world and seeing ourselves in the world, and navigating relationships and careers and all that. So it kind of was my pattern of getting more insights into what I was dealing with so that afterwards that became kind of my mission to be for others and be an assistant.

MARTIN: But the word ethics really resonates with me there. New code of ethics. Now, ethics is a big deal, right? Because our society here in America especially has been sliding into a total realm of confusion about ethics and what is right and what is just and what is not. At least that's my impression. Would you agree?

ALISA: I think it's going to be different for everybody. I try to see everybody having a sense of what's right for themselves. And I feel like if it feels right because, if we do something and we have to justify it for ourselves, we may question whether it's the right thing or not because when we do the right thing, we don't have to question that or justify it. And I feel like everybody has; they're entitled to their own opinion and their own way of life. It's just sometimes maybe it's better to set boundaries with those people that maybe don't align with you.

MARTIN: I hear you on that. I'm of the opinion that there are some absolute values, absolute truths that relativism doesn't really work for. Meaning, that there is such a thing as good and evil. There is such a thing as harming others and not harming others. And just saying, "Well, everything's okay. If you think it's all right, then you do it. It's right for you." I have a challenge with that.

ALISA: No, absolutely. I'm not saying that there are certain things like, don't kill, don't steal, and all of these other truths that we have that are universal. However, I feel like if we just try to force someone to change that, number one, there's usually why they do what they do, even when they're harming others. And working in rehab in the past of the beginning of my career, I've learned a lot of people struggling making decisions that were not for their highest good in a way, but they also were conditioned in that way. So, it's not like they're doing that because they want to hurt others, but it's a natural response to the conditions they had to deal with. So sometimes I've learned in the past to be less judgmental when it comes to things that I hear from others because again, I'm there for people and I can't really judge them based on their experience. I can explore that with them and see where they stand if they want to change. And if again, if someone is really hurting someone and you know you're that person who is receiving that harm then the most loving thing you can do is set those boundaries and remove yourself. 

However, we can see that a lot of people like to remain in situations that are even abusive, just because that's their choice. And so I'm not one to kind of push them out of that or push someone to be more ethical or have better values if they're not ready and they don't want it. It can create more tension and stress rather than, because again, force never works.

MARTIN: Right. Right. Okay. So I guess this would be from thoughts to emotions, from emotions to behaviors, from behaviors to habits, from habits to character, that sort of graduation, of how the world is built. Yeah.

ALISA: Yeah. Absolutely.

MARTIN: Yeah. You threw in the word awareness. I think that's really super important. Right? These days, when I'm scrolling on my phone, I'm anything but aware. I'm just absorbed and taking it outside-in rather than reflecting on myself. Right.

ALISA: Yes. Absolutely. And I'm a big supporter of this. I'm telling people; I'm always putting these three steps to change. Number one is self-awareness. Because a lot of us are not self-aware at all. And I feel like even when we begin to be self-aware, we're still not self-aware about other things that continue to come up because we're always becoming and always changing. So the first step is self-awareness. 

The second step is being willing to change, to say, you know what? What I'm observing, what I am aware of, I don't like that. I really want to change that because I don't want to be hurting others. Right? Speaking of those types of experiences, I want to do better for myself, for my family, whatever, the values begin to kind of step forward. 

And then the third one is being ready to change. And that's the hard one for a lot of people to kind of go forward with because you will have to put a lot of effort and practice and consistency into changing your own ways. And not a lot of people are actually willing to do that, right? They're willing to change, but they don't want to do the work. And so that can be a very big step for a lot of people to start that process of healing.

MARTIN: Yeah. I always see change. It happens in a heartbeat. But you are having to roll yourself up that steep hill. It's sort of like pushing pushing pushing to the point of when the change happens, but sometimes it takes a lot of effort to get to the point of being able to change.

ALISA: Yes, absolutely.

MARTIN: Well, sometimes, I heard Oprah Winfrey talk about this. She says, "Well, life will give you a nudge. It will give you just a hint and then it will give you a bump. Then it'll give you a shove, then it gives you a hit and then you're going to hit the wall. At what time are you willing to notice? 

ALISA: Ah. I think it's a great question, but that's what I'm a big supporter of: aligning spirituality with mental health in big ways. Again, if people are not there, that's fine, but again, we can make sense or better sense of our experiences, especially traumatic experiences, if we look at the bigger picture. And just like everything in life, there's a natural rhythm, right? Just like, I always talk about my favorite teacher, Dr. Wayne Dyer, and he talks about growing in a mother's womb, right? We're not trying to expedite the process. We're not trying to grow different organs. We don't interfere with this process. Everything shows up when it has to show up. 

And I feel like even in dealing with trauma and becoming more aware of what's going on in our lives, there are also steps that we go through. Sometimes it makes sense. Sometimes, maybe it is that nudge or a push from life. And if we don't, if we know better but we don't do better then we get a really big kick out of that. But we already have a certain level of awareness, saying that, maybe I should look into this, and then if I'm reluctant to do that, that's when I feel like life begins to bring us forward to change. And when we resist that, it's going to start to really push us forward. 

But there's also a natural progression to that, and sometimes people are not ready to hear that. I feel like it's good to place a seed for someone, right? If I have any conversation and the thing is, we all contribute to each other's progress. And I feel like this is a very beautiful experience that everything we're all part of is something that we don't understand, some energy that runs through all of us and through all the plants and everything in this universe, so to say. And I feel like sometimes we don't listen to ourselves because we all have that guidance internally. 

Then other people may bring that awareness to us through comments, right? Saying something that may kind of resonate or not, maybe it's going to make us triggered because I don't want to hear that yet, because I'm not willing or ready to change, right? But I'm already gaining slightly that self-awareness. So, I feel like understanding that, as others can participate in our healing process, we also participate in someone else's healing process. 

And sometimes when we're just drawn to say something to them, right? Whether it's positive or maybe it's raw truth, it can also be very therapeutic and they need to hear that. And I feel like understanding that we all collaborate and work together and that's how shared intelligence and new code of ethics kind of came up, right? Is understanding the oneness of everything, and yet understanding our own healing process and what we have to go through in order to change.

MARTIN: Oh well, you're going deep. All right. So, the difference between religion and spirituality we need to understand is that all human beings on this planet have an innate need for transcendence. We're born with it, and we of course build constructs in various ways as to what that means, how it works and so on. So religion is usually just a construct built to try and figure out what our drive toward transcendence, toward understanding the meaning of life is all about. So everyone has that, even if they are going to a different church. It should be understood and acknowledged, right?

ALISA: Yes. Absolutely. Again, there is something, let's think about two concepts that I can ask. One is electricity, yes, we know electricity exists because we have the lamps, but it's an invisible type of energy that runs through these cables right? You cannot put it in a bucket and say: “Well this is a bucket of electricity,” the same goes for thoughts right? We have thoughts. We can all agree we have thoughts because we have so many of them. But can we locate a thought inside of our head even if I cut it open? No, right? So something is there. There are a lot of forces that are invisible but yet powerful to create, either kill us or heal us. Right? Because the thoughts can either kill us or heal us. And we have to choose them wisely. And we have control over that. 

And when it comes to spirituality, too. And that energy that runs through all of us, that doesn't discriminate whether you go to this church, then I'm going to run through you. When you go to that place, I'm going to run through you. And I feel like there are a lot of misconceptions. I know people who are religious and spiritual. I know people who are just spiritual. I know people who are just religious. I feel like it's helping you to be a better person and find your connection, find peace, do whatever you feel like is right. But I also know that not everybody who can cite the Bible experiences God. And I've seen those examples too, right? Because we all have different ways of, and if I see someone super judgmental, but they always cover up by saying, "Well, this person said that, this Jesus or Muhammad,” or whatever, whoever they're using as an example, and they're judging others, you’re going away from spirituality. It's my own view again, and I feel like if your religion is making you judge others, maybe, to me, that's not the best kind of practice. Just because again, learning to be more accepting and understanding of the oneness of life in general, but if it's making you a better person, go ahead. Because that's the ultimate goal, I feel like, of finding your own spiritual connection, whether it's from a religious perspective, whether it's from a meditative perspective. I feel like it's good to kind of understand that, and I know a lot of people who are not religious but they do things for the world that are so spiritual in nature, and I'm so fortunate to meet those people and get their perspective of life. And they don't even consider themselves spiritual; they just do the good deeds, and I feel like that's a really important kind of work.

MARTIN: Right. Exactly that. Yeah. How do I put it, well, I think tolerance, right? Because any virtue taken to an extreme becomes a vice. So I don't know, that should be thought about and considered because as soon as you start thinking that you have the answer, you will probably find out that you don't have the whole answer. Somehow, life will bring you a message.

ALISA: Absolutely. And I feel like that's a never ending journey because I feel like we always seek the healing and say: “Well, I want to get to that destination when I'm healed.” And I feel like healing is in growth, it's not about the destination but about the journey, and learning more about yourself, and it's a never-ending process, because the more you feel like you found answers for your own questions the more questions begin to appear. And it's like every single day I'm looking at myself, I'm like, okay, what can I do better next time? What can I do better tomorrow? And that's never-ending. Every single day I find new things I got to be working on and I feel like it's a very good thing because that progress will create us always becoming and becoming better versions of ourselves rather than getting, like you've mentioned, stagnation, right? That's exactly what happens when there is no progress, that's when we get trapped in the condition of life that we consider to be detrimental. And if we learn to surpass that and find ways to always strive to progress to be better, I feel like that's the ultimate journey that we need to take as humans and it's a beautiful, beautiful experience.

MARTIN: Yeah. Yeah. I saw some pictures of you guiding meditations and what not else. I guess we should try and explain in practical terms how you actually do, how do you work with people?

ALISA: Oh, there are a lot of different areas that I like to cover. Again, clinical mental health is one thing. I do, I work with sound healing as well, and I do meditations beforehand and after guiding people through this experience of what sound healing is. It's scientifically backed up. It's a beautiful practice and it works with, if we think about our bodies everything within our body vibrates. Every single cell has a vibration. It's a scientific thing. It's not mystical or spiritual even though it's spiritual, but it's not in those terms. So if we use sound healing tools, the sound bounces off the walls, penetrating the body and helps those parts that may be tense or unhealed because everything, even emotional state, gives us a physiological response. Our trauma is not just something mental. Trauma also resides in our bodies. And so sometimes, again, if we have, if we're anxious, we have heart palpitations or indigestion, right? If we're sad, we can have fatigue and be low in energy. All of these things can create an overall state of not having that well-being. And so sound healing allows us to penetrate the body and shift that vibration of the spot that may be tense or unhealed at the moment and actually remove the intensity and the problem underneath.

I actually worked with this practice in a rehab, in detox, which is a very rough place to administer anything because people are going through a lot of intention and distress, and just, recovery is very very brutal. And I've seen remarkable results. I've seen people falling asleep when they haven't slept in days. I've seen people meeting their relatives that they forgot existed and getting strength from that because it's all about how we kind of perceive that. And I've seen people not having pains in the back or in the shoulders, and it's incredible what that can do. And I was so fortunate to observe that and get that feedback from what people experience. So, I love to guide anybody through the process of number one, reconnecting with themselves, because naturally it's learning about yourself and what's going on inside and becoming more self-aware. Because the moment we go inwards rather than trying to make sense of the world looking outwards, that's when we begin to know what to do next, and listening to yourself and your own guidance can be the most important tool we can learn.

MARTIN: Yeah. I'd like to add my perspective to it this way. I think water, because of its polar nature, the negative and positive poles to every water molecule tends to clump together to form latent crystals. And I think that is nature's memory device. That's the storage device especially for emotions. And this water is stored within us. So all of our events, memories, traumas are stored in the soft body in the soft tissue of our body in the waters. And so when we play music at it, the vibrations are helping to reorganize how this is actually stored. You can also get to it through massage, and you can get through it through exercise and physicality. But experiencing music specifically music because it's the physical vibration that resonates with the body. It will show itself up. There was a bit of work done by people who are taking crystals, no pictures of crystals of freshly freezing water. When you are just freezing water, it will show itself either as symmetrical or not, asymmetrical, and you can create very amorphous, unorganized-looking crystals when you play awful things to it or say awful things to it. And on the opposite, you will get way more harmony out of the fresh crystals when you either play nice, harmonious, usually classical music, or if you say loving things to it.

ALISA: Absolutely. Yes, I 100% agree. And there are a lot of experiments now. I know people do that often with rice experiments when they have different jars of rice and they talk nicely to one, and then they talk badly to another, and the third one they ignore. And the same experience with plants, plants can read our intentions, not even what we think or say to them. They can read literally what we're about to do to them, and we're just thinking and intending. And it's a blind mind-blowing kind of revelation for humans, I feel like. And I absolutely agree too, how much effect music can have on us. So that's beautiful. And we're made of water, right, primarily if we think about it.

MARTIN: Yeah.

ALISA: And also understanding, I feel like the neural connections that fire and wire together, too, to create that trauma internally. That's another very important aspect of working with people too, like you've said, working on their physiology, and somatic work is something that I'm very passionate about, and EMDR, which showed to be very very effective with a lot of people too.

MARTIN: What do those three letters stand for?

ALISA: It's for eye movement, desensitization, reprocessing. So we have, thinking about how Dan Siegel put it, we have the top brain and the bottom brain. The top brain is something that makes decisions, I'm about to do this right now, right? And we also have a lot of explicit memories stored, that I can say, okay, this year that happened, this happened when I was this age, right? We have certain experiences that are on the outside and then the bottom brain, because when we experience anything, whether we get scared or we're happy, we have a physiological component to that right? If we get scared, we have heart palpitations, digestion, we have shivers, right? Different people may have a different kind of way of experiencing that. But all of that is because our neurons fire and wire together every time we have an experience. And the more experiences we have that reaffirm the same negative neural network, the worse our lens through which we look at the world becomes. And so EMDR allows us to get deeper into even those parts that may be implicit memories of how I experienced a certain trauma or certain kind of moment in my life or certain event, and allows through a process break those connections down and instill something that we want to think about ourselves instead. Because under all of these neural connections we have negative beliefs about ourselves. And unfortunately, that stays around for quite some time. Which I've discovered only recently, and I've processed my trauma from Russia only like last year or two years ago, so it's been kind of a kind of a very eye-opening experience for me to be doing this work and also becoming more aware of those physiological connections.

MARTIN: So are you now able to guide people through the experience yourself?

ALISA: Oh, absolutely. Yeah, it's already been my journey for almost a year now, and I love it, and there's always more to learn and again, it's a very powerful practice for anybody if people are really looking and kind of reprocessing that. Again, you have to be ready for that because it's going to get uncomfortable. You'll have to look at things that you probably don't want to look at at all, right? But at the same time, I always make a comparison when people say: “You know, I don't want to dig into that. I don't want to open up those old wounds.” Well, imagine that you have a big injury on your hand, let's say, right? And then it heals on top. So you see a little scar, but on top it's healed. The skin is healed, but underneath that scar, there's an infected wound. So there's a lot of infection. There are cuts, and there's all of this bad stuff that continues. They're going to impact your health, right? Well-being. But on top, you look at it, and you say, "It's fine." Trauma doesn't work that way. If we have a, and it doesn't have to be something super big or something very severe to experience trauma. Neglect can do that or unmet needs as children. So understanding that certain experiences can be impacting us in a negative way and trying to see where that wound can be that's been infected and whether it's there or not and that's becoming self aware in our life altogether. How are we with other people, with ourselves, am I living, am I the best version of me? Am I functioning how I would love to function? If the answers are no there may be something related to trauma too, that it's important to explore. Yes.

MARTIN: Clean out your garbage. If you don't, it's going to stink up the whole house.

ALISA: Exactly. Exactly.

MARTIN: Even if it's just contained in a bucket that sits in your kitchen. You have to take it out now and then. Otherwise, the whole place becomes unlivable.

ALISA: I love that. Yeah, that's a great metaphor for sure. Yes.

MARTIN: Indeed. Okay, so how do people connect with you? How do you guide that? Do you do that one-on-one? One on many, what's happening in your world as you go through helping people?

ALISA: Yes. I currently work at the group practice. So my information is on Google. Google is pretty open to my presence in there. So if you just put Alisa Gravecha, there's a lot of different resources. I have my website www.since.life, Psychology Today as well. My information for clinical mental health is there. Sometimes I post about sound healing meditations. Right now it's kind of on the back seat for a little bit, but yes, I'm here and available if anybody wants a consultation, it's going to be free, just needing to connect and kind of request that, and I'll be there for people.

MARTIN: How does a person decide that they are your type of customer?

ALISA: Yes, well I feel like one thing, and that's a very big misconception in therapy altogether, you have to find the person who will resonate with you. And that's why again we do those consultations to see if we can be the right fit. Because again, just like we're trying to go to a hairdresser, it’s probably not going to be the first one we ever go to, right? Sometimes we need to find someone who will fit our needs and we will like them and with every profession it's like that. But unfortunately, when people go to counseling, sometimes they don't like what the person is, they completely disregard the full mental health kind of practice, right? So, connecting with people too, and finding maybe, having different people you want to talk to if you like the EMDR itself, right or somatic work or anything you want to do. Find different people, read their bios, see if you align with that. See if what they do is kind of resonating with you too, and then go for a consultation and see if that's someone that you would like to share your secrets with or, you know, open up to. I feel like it's a good idea to get multiple people and connect with multiple practitioners.

MARTIN: I was trying to fish for well, what kind of experience or what is the person supposed to be experiencing when they are going to be calling you. But I guess it's the broadest thing. Anything that's on the spectrum of not happy to tragically unhappy to destructive. It could be anything, right?

ALISA: Absolutely. Yes. Well, from trauma, we experience depression, anxiety, panic attacks, substance use, and all those kinds of problems I work with. So, yeah.

MARTIN: Yeah. I think there's just endless space for all of this. Right now, we recognize that about 75% of pharmaceutical prescriptions are filled for either anxiety or depression chemicals to change how we feel. And on top of that, people are wanting to not feel the trauma that they are experiencing, and they're taking mind-numbing chemicals for it. Whether they're doing it with food or alcohol or street drugs, and that's just the wrong way to go about it. All of those problems that you're thinking you can solve or at least shut down with the chemicals, you should probably process with methods that we are just discussing here.

ALISA: I think sometimes it's important to take medications for certain problems because I've seen a lot of different types of diagnosis and disorders and sometimes it's an important part of at least starting to stabilize the system. Because people can be in a very dysregulated kind of space and state. And so sometimes it can be helpful and it will be helpful. However, it's not a long-term thing and learning new coping skills and how to navigate life. It has to come together. So it's medication with interventions that you choose. It doesn't have to be psychotherapy. If you want to explore other methods, go for that. But sometimes those two have to work together in order for us to start changing and then getting off of medication if that's something that's approved by a medical provider. If you feel like you've gotten a lot of coping skills to deal with life now and you are able to provide for yourself a different perspective, navigate challenges and stresses and then maybe that's a new kind of journey too to get off the medications in order to proceed with more experiences in life. Because yes, naturally medications help numb the symptoms but they're not doing anything to the causes for those symptoms. And so that's something that we have to go and find ourselves, but it's also not a given and it's an exploration, that journey we're talking about. Right? Not the destination, even though destination will be nice, but there's always new destinations that we have to get to after that, never ending process.

MARTIN: Right. Yeah. And it's the process you opened with it, and I think it still holds true is that, you cannot just take a pill for that, the pill may change how you feel but you actually need to do the work to get from here to there. And the there is freedom from trauma or freedom from reacting to trauma that has happened. It's not that it has absolutely, it's just that we are hoping that you will have better choices at the end of the process.

ALISA: Yes. Well, it's about changing our patterns, right? Just like you've mentioned the transition from one thing to the character that we have. And we're all made, we're creatures of habits. Everything we do is habitual. Every thought we think is habitual. And even feelings and Joe Dispenza talks about that too, that we get addicted to emotions themselves. We get addicted to the state, and it's not in a way that we understand that. It's just the chemical cocktail in our brain that allows us to have this comfort even if it's if uncomfortable. And so, we get used to that and we don't want to let it go. And when we start changing, we have to, we will notice that sometimes our bodies are responding back to us. Well, that doesn't feel right. Why do you have the serotonin and dopamine? That feels weird right now. You shouldn't be feeling that way. And so that's a lot of internal fights. So, my boss and my supervisor at the rehab too, he was saying, you have to fight a good fight. It's a fight with yourself and your patterns, but if you win over yourself, you're unstoppable. There's nothing that can take you down because you'll find a way to navigate anything in your life, if you win over yourself. But it's a very hard fight.

MARTIN: Yeah. There's a good cowboy metaphor: when you find the most difficult horse, once you make friends with that horse, you'll have the best horse possible, right?

ALISA: I love that.

MARTIN: It's the ones that are hard to tame that will give you the greatest service.

ALISA: Mhm. Yeah.

MARTIN: All right. So, let's just repeat that. So, if someone wants to connect with you, is it AlisaGravecha.com?

ALISA: No, no, no. It's www.since.life.

MARTIN: Spell it out. https://since.life/

ALISA: Yes. Yes, that correct. Absolutely.

MARTIN: All right. Yeah, Alisa, this has been inspiring and educational, and I'm so encouraged that you're there. As young as you are, you have many years ahead of you of helping people. So, it's just awesome. And I especially want to make sure that especially the younger ones relate to you and listen to you because there's so much temptation on the media, on the social media, on the phone to just get hooked in and become an addict to not feeling, just consuming without reflecting, and we have to overcome that, otherwise we're in deep dudoo.

ALISA: I agree with that for sure. A journey for a lot of us, and it's all about self-awareness. If it doesn't feel right, maybe there's time for a change, but everyone has to decide for themselves.

MARTIN: Well, here's one of the doors that a person can walk through and end up in a much better room.

ALISA: Hopefully, it's all about their own desire to change and how willing they are and ready for that.

MARTIN: All right. So, since.life, this is Alisa Gravecha. Thank you very much for being here today. And my name is Martin and you will find me at life-enthusiast.com. Thank you.

ALISA: Thank you for having me.